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Poster: patkelley Date: Sep 8, 2005 1:37pm
Forum: etree Subject: Does anyone happen to know....?

Why there is no Phish on here? They are'nt really one of my favorite bands, although I've seen them many times and liked them. They just seem as though they should be on here somewhere. This has probably been discussed on here before, but I've just thought about it now.

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Poster: Alex Prestin Date: Sep 8, 2005 2:47pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Does anyone happen to know....?

They've opted not to be included.

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Poster: patkelley Date: Sep 8, 2005 10:00pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Does anyone happen to know....?

For the sake of argument here, it seems to me that there would be little if nothing a band who has allowed its fans to record and distribute its performances among friends could do so long as these performances weren't being sold. The relevant statutes (17 USC 504, 15 USC 1114), and subsequent judicial interpretations deal with copyright infringement through the sale of such recordings. This doesn't occur here. The band has essentially said, "Come to the show, record it, and share it." Once they've allowed this, I've found nothing to indicate that they can exert the type of control over those recordings that would prevent those in possession of those recordings from sharing them here in a large format. Their goal may be to profit from the sale of their shows,but I dont see how the goals of this site interfere with that goal per se. If any other law students or lawyers happen to see this post and have some insight, please respond.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Sep 8, 2005 10:33pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Does anyone happen to know....?

No need to discuss Pat, you won't see Phish recordings here because they asked us not to host them here. Archive.org respects this request - same with any other artist requests - and hope that eventually they will allow inclusion of audience recordings in the years to come.

This post was modified by Brad Leblanc on 2005-09-09 05:33:25

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Poster: patkelley Date: Sep 8, 2005 10:26pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Does anyone happen to know....?

That's fine, and I'm all for the respect of musicians etc. But my question really is what would happen if someone started posting Phish on here (or any other band who's requested not to participate) under the band's name or some fictitious name ("Unknown Artist"). I only have a couple Phish studio CDs, so dont worry about me. But, again, I'd like to discuss this outside the realm of respect, because the legal system doesnt really recognize respect for others as a binding rule against doing anything. Maybe a site administrator could provide some info. I'm not a jerk or anything, I've just had a lot of coffee this morning and am thinking about the issue.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Sep 8, 2005 11:35pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Respect for artists

Well apart from any actual laws, our white-hat musical taping/trading community works by social contract. Under this contract, a band says what they prefer and the fans and tapers agree go along with it and attempt to comply.

The Internet Archive tries to keep its white hat on straight. :) That's why it asked for help from etree.org and other good folks with this Live Music Archive project.

General enforcement in the community is often through social pressure by peers, including the potentially thousands of watchdogs here that Brad mentioned. They don't want to jeopardize their positive relationship with a band.

Essentially you *can't* really discuss this "outside the realm of repect" because respect is integral to the workings.

[Some taperssection members will recognize this as a handy recycling of my material. ;) ]

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-09-09 06:35:40

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Poster: patkelley Date: Sep 9, 2005 7:25am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Respect for artists

Your info is helpful. I suppose I was mainly wondering whether or not there was some kind of legal mechanism in place preventing people from posting stuff from bands who didnt want to be included. If there was, I would wonder what it was and how it worked legally because, as I've pointed out, there doesnt seem to be any statutory basis for a band to control their material once they've basically surrendered it to the public. Incidentally, the link to the wikipedia definition of a social contract was unnecessary and somewhat patronizing. Other than that, you've clarified the issue to a degree.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Sep 9, 2005 7:54am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Respect for artists

I suppose I was mainly wondering whether or not there was some kind of legal mechanism in place preventing people from posting stuff from bands who didnt want to be included.

No legal mechanism. Just a group of curators and faith in a large fanbase to help us "police" the contents of the collection (thanks to many years of groundwork and education of fans at etree.org!) so they line up with the wishes of the artists.

This is the nature of the beast - in order to setup a project of this magnitude (~1200 artists, ~26000 recordings, ~20 LMA recordings per day) we need a contribution engine that allows for eyeball approvals combined with faithful eardrum police work by the patrons. If this system gets abused, the LMA project will collapse. Please keep it running by helping us ensure all contents are approved by the artists.

This post was modified by Brad Leblanc on 2005-09-09 14:54:05

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Poster: barry d Date: Sep 12, 2005 9:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Respect for artists

I just read this posts and wanted to add my thoughts. I think this site, and the folks who run it, is awesome, and I often check the new bands and their permission links, becuase I see it as our responsibility to do this. After all, we get all of this great music for free, the least we can do is help monitor the site and keep it legit. Thanks for all of the music!!!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Sep 12, 2005 10:13am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Respect for artists

Thanks for keeping the spirit alive, Barry! :)

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Sep 9, 2005 7:52am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Respect for artists

Sorry, as of last month we are now at ~31 LMA recordings per day. :)

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Sep 9, 2005 8:00am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Respect for artists

White hats, eyeballs and eardrums- we need a Mr. Potatohead mascot instead of a llama. ;)

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Sep 9, 2005 7:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Respect for artists

The background link wasn't necessarily just for you- since there are other readers on this forum and topic I thought it might help. It helped in a different forum where this came up recently. ;)

As for legal angles, there was some discussion in 2003 in the forum. I can't remember how relevant the posts were to your topic however- I think it was about taping. If you search the forums for "lawyer" or "counsel" and look for hits in the "etree" forum, some threads may come up. I don't remember the exact terms.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-09-09 14:46:20

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Poster: direwolf207 Date: Sep 9, 2005 12:21am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Respect for artists

[Some taperssection members will recognize this as a handy recycling of my material. ;) ]


Yeah, it's like Deja-vu!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffBrad Leblanc Date: Sep 8, 2005 10:40pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Does anyone happen to know....?

Well, you can't post it under the band's name because an admin would have to activate the "Phish" section (artist needs to be in the "Approved" list). If the files were snuck under the radar and posted under another artist section, we have a couple thousand fans out there that would notice in a hurry and point it out. Since our system logs all kinds of info from contributors, the uploader would quickly be banned from the site and the content removed.

This post was modified by Brad Leblanc on 2005-09-09 05:40:53

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Poster: morst Date: Sep 9, 2005 3:59am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Does anyone happen to know....?

I am not sure an artist would have legal recourse to prevent some other site from hosting their shows, but the "white hat" mode here prevents archive.org from hosting shows against bands' wishes. I am fascinated by this entire topic, and particularly curious about international copyright status of live perfomance recordings.

>The band has essentially said, "Come to the show, record it, and share it." Once they've allowed this, I've found nothing to indicate that they can exert the type of control over those recordings that would prevent those in possession of those recordings from sharing them here in a large format.